NFTJoe & UNDRGRND Magazine - New Artists Discovery Engine

Summary
Today it's a colorful chat about underground music and art discovery and support. UNDRGRND's journey is a testament of passion and persistence of NFTJoe.

Listen as he shares his journey into Web3 and crypto, starting with his interest in NFTs and writing about them. He discusses the early days of UNDRGRND, the project focused on featuring (new & up'n'coming) independent artists in Web3. Despite facing challenges and setbacks, Joe's persistence and belief in the project have kept it going for 4 years now.

He talks about the recent launch of the UNDRGRND token (called $GRND) and DAO membership cards, and the future plans for the project, including building a DAO and expanding to different parts of the world. Joe would like to see UNDRGRND branching out of just visual arts, into music and maybe film. He sees UNDRGRND as the platform that supports and promotes artists, musicians, and eventually film/movie creators in the Web3 space.

The focus of UNDRGRND is on incentivizing specific actions that benefit artists and fans with the goal being - creation of a sustainable platform that can continue to support creators indefinitely. And that cannot be done without creators supporting the platform back.  So hop on for the ride now!

Takeaways

• Persistence and belief in a project can help overcome challenges and setbacks.
• Building trust and forming genuine connections with people in the Web3 space is important.
• Launching a project in the crypto space requires adaptability and the ability to pivot when necessary.
• Creating a community-owned project and involving members in decision-making can foster a sense of ownership and engagement. 
• The founder envisions Underground as a place for art, music, and eventually film, with a focus on cultivating smaller artists.
• The platform aims to incentivize specific actions that benefit artists and fans, such as engaging with content and leaving comments.
• The goal is to create a sustainable platform that can continue to support creators indefinitely.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Background
13:48 The Journey into Web3 and Crypto
23:05 Launching the Underground Token and Membership Cards
27:48 Building a Community-Owned Project
30:24 The Vision for Underground: Art, Music, and Film
33:43 Focusing on Fans and Incentivizing Engagement
37:07 Demystifying Art and Cultivating a Community
40:46 Building a Sust

Transcript

BFG (Pete) (00:00.878)
Hello everyone, welcome back to Web3Magic Podcast. We are back with Season 3. This is a podcast where I talk with builders of interesting Web3 projects. So basically anybody using blockchain for something useful and interesting and ideally not just for token, which is going to be forgotten in a week. And today I'm talking with Joe and Joe is working on something which could be...

forgotten by now, but because of his persistence, I would say it's still here and it's thriving and we are going to talk about it a lot today. So, you know, listen up, hit that subscribe button and let me welcome Joe. Hey, how are you?

BFG (Pete) (00:52.334)
Are you good or have I lost you?

Joe (00:53.247)
There you are. Yeah, no, sorry. It was like uploading and it buffered.

BFG (Pete) (00:59.15)
No worries. Okay, so how are you today, Joe?

Joe (01:04.191)
Good, good. I'm excited to finally sit down and talk to you. I've heard so much about you. It's nice to talk face to face after we have a few spaces here and there and you kind of like get to know people digitally. It's nice to put a face to the voice sometimes or even just a voice to the Twitter handle for that matter.

BFG (Pete) (01:08.654)
What?

BFG (Pete) (01:24.686)
Right. Yeah, sometimes it's surprising who is hiding behind the animal picture. So, let me jump right in. So what was your journey into Web3 and crypto? When did it start and what hooked you up? Or was it someone who hooked you up? What was your way into this?

Joe (01:34.111)
Mm -hmm. I know.

Joe (01:48.239)
Yeah, so I'm a stay at home dad. I've got she's now four. Three years ago, I was, you know, just watching her and kind of looking for a hobby to keep me busy. One year olds aren't very talkative or great a conversation. So like I needed something. I started seeing like NFTs, start reading articles.

and understood, you know, concepts of art. Literature teacher, this is what my degree is in. So like, there's overlap there. And thought I, you know, could possibly make money doing it. And this was the beginning of 2021. So it hadn't blown up yet, in that sense. So people could still jump in and get money. And then,

You know, I started getting feeded things on social media about it and saw a Reddit post looking for writers to write about NFTs in general and get paid doing it. And I was like, this is the scam. Nothing's going to come of this. And then I started talking to the guy and they just kept, you know, encouraging me to write and put things out there. So I started writing.

more and more. And, you know, that was always a dream of mine to write and get paid for my writing. It's why most writers become teachers is because it's very difficult to make money writing in this world. But so I did it. And, you know, it wasn't a lot of money, but it was something. And it was, you know, I was living a portion of my dream.

And so, you know, I just like started asking questions and started, you know, sharing my crazy ideas for things to do. And, you know, they were like, yeah, let's do it. And so right around when Hicket Nunk got started, I told them, I was like, guys, like, this is what we need to focus on is like, you know, underground independent artists in Web3, because a lot of the focus is on

Joe (04:15.135)
that top echelon of people and how much they're selling for. And I was never interested in talking about price or how much profit, even though that's extremely important to it, but that's not what has interested me. I've always been one of those hipster punk kids throughout my entire life. And I've always enjoyed searching for things that are not...

mainstream and not seen by a lot of people. And that's what Higgett Nunk really was about in those early days. So we started writing about small artists and featuring them. And it's kind of blown up from there. And now it's underground. And it's this thing that I never thought would actually exist. But it does. And like you said, like a thousand of these projects come along are like, this is what we're going to do.

And then they just kind of like wither away and you know people lose the energy to do it. Which, because it's tough. It's draining.

BFG (Pete) (05:25.454)
It definitely is. I actually, I think I mentioned it on spaces, which we did together that, you know, I came across underground probably a year ago and, and it, it kind of looked like, you know, the idea is good, but, but it, it, it may be, you know, because of the frequency of publishing or something, I sort of put it into the shelf of like, this is end of life project.

Joe (05:34.815)
Mm -hmm.

BFG (Pete) (05:55.95)
And so it definitely surprised me when our mutual friend now, Drago, said that, you know, let's do spaces with the underground. I'm like, this kind of looks familiar. Interesting, interesting. And yeah, so now we spilled the beans and we know that the project is called Underground. Was it always underground from the beginning?

Joe (06:25.855)
Yes, that was always the name. All these ideas that are coming to fruition, like I've had them for three years from the beginning and all I've been doing is, you know, I would stay up late at night just like texting the guys that I used to work with and just be like, this is what we got to do. This is this and this is what we should call this and this is what we should do. That's just like a lot of artists have creativity that they can create images and

I learned in high school that my artistic talent was not even close to being good compared to my friends that could actually create art. So like my creativity is in like this stuff and fulfilling gaps and needs of what people can do and coming up with creative.

ideas to like engage and bring people together. So like, I've just been writing my ideas down for like, this is what we do at this stage, this is what we do at the next stage. And I'm just following that map that I've had in my head. So like, underground was always, to me, it felt like a little pretentious to call it underground. And I felt like that imposter syndrome that everybody faces at some point, because, you know, part of these like punk,

underground scenes, it's like, you just know when you belong. And I never felt like I, everyone always feels like they don't belong. And that's kind of what brings us all together. So I just sort of kind of like, I mean, I'm old now. So I just kind of lean into it now. Like, I do seem to know things before most people and know how to find those like, hidden,

restaurants, musicians, movies and stuff that are like really niche and it feels like I do belong. I think there's an artist, Angie Taylor, she's the one that like really gave me the confidence to just that I did belong in this like punk scene. She was like,

Joe (08:44.127)
I always looked at punks as just being a bunch of weirdos and losers that just kind of coagulated with each other. And once she said that, I realized, I'm not a fraud. I'm just like everyone else that is also in these types of communities too.

BFG (Pete) (09:00.206)
Right. So, you know, I made a note of several questions, but I'll start with the historic ones. So you mentioned that you had, you know, partners before, actually, you know, the guys who sort of, and I would say, dragged you into writing about NFTs and other things. Have you guys?

you know, did you know each other before or you just met on that Reddit forum and never, you know, actually did a face to face like, you know, they're not friends from school or anything like that, right?

Joe (09:38.175)
Yep. Nope, didn't know them at all. And it's, which is scary for a lot of things. And for the first year, my wife didn't believe in any of this, that any of this was even going to be remotely possible. Because she's like, they're just strangers on the internet. Like, you they don't owe you anything. You're putting a lot of trust in these people that you barely know. And

for better or worse, that's who I am, unfortunately. And, you know, I think there's a lot of people like me that get burned because of it. But yeah, like we would talk on video calls, Sean is down in Miami. So we're at least the same time zone. So like, that's who I really connected with, and who was one of my biggest supporters for my writing, Kenny.

who was also the partner of the company that hired me. He's over in Australia. So like, we would message each other, but for the most part, we wouldn't do face to face calls in the early days because the time difference is just, it's impossible at times to... Yeah. No. So, yeah, like, and...

BFG (Pete) (10:40.75)
Alright.

BFG (Pete) (10:45.998)
It's basically ideal time difference. You will never see each other.

Joe (10:55.615)
That's kind of what this entire space is built on. You know, it's trust in complete strangers. And I am quick to call people that I trust friends. Like, I believe that like we you and I will become friends and are becoming friends because like it. Yes, you I know. But because it's you can kind of get a sense of people in this space.

And yeah, I don't want to be one of those people that keeps people at a distance. Like if I can tell like what your ethics are, your morals, your convictions as a person, like I'm going to put my trust in you and I want to see you succeed the same way. So it's.

BFG (Pete) (11:42.958)
I am super happy you are saying that because I think a lot of people actually need to hear that. If you wanna not only succeed, I think success has many definitions, so it's hard to say, but if you wanna enjoy it and have fun in the space, with all the time you're probably putting into it, you need to find friends here and you need to trust in people. And sure, occasionally from time to time it's not gonna work out. It's probably like...

Joe (11:48.447)
Mm -hmm.

Joe (12:05.439)
Mm -hmm.

BFG (Pete) (12:11.598)
in most endeavors and in the rest of life. Not everybody turns out the way you thought. But, you know, after I would say three, four years, I am looking at the space basically like on any other space outside. So it's way easier to, at least from my perspective, because I'm a big optimist, so it's easier to be just, you know.

Joe (12:15.519)
Mm -hmm.

Joe (12:30.175)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

BFG (Pete) (12:40.814)
Believe in people and trust them until they prove you wrong.

Joe (12:45.791)
Exactly. Yeah. And that's a better way. I don't look at myself as optimistic, really. I think I'm pretty pessimistic about it when it comes to that. But like you said, like you you trust in people until they prove you wrong. And, you know, that's a better way to be, I think. And when they prove you wrong, then you cut them out. And that's it. That's all you can do. You

hold people accountable and hold them to the same standard you hold yourself. But yeah.

BFG (Pete) (13:19.478)
So let's go back to underground, okay? So give me or give us a short like run -up through time how it started and Where is it now? And you know, I'm just you know before you say it. I'm just curious so I Know you mentioned you've been working on this for three or four years. Is it the was it really like the thing?

the only thing you were doing apart from family, of course, was it sustainable? Because it sounds so scary. Four years is a long time.

Joe (13:59.647)
It's terrifying most days and I'm like stressed out. Like I used to be a much better looking man. And now I'm this shell of my former self. Cause it wears on you. For a while it was sustainable. And it started out as like very small. It was featuring five artists a week in how we call them underground digs.

Pick five artists, we purchase work from them, write about them, and then email it out to people and that was it. And that's how the publication got started. Then we would do exclusive drops, we would give membership cards out for free on Tezos to people that just help support Underground with likes, retweets, collecting work from the artists. And it was affordable.

You know, so like it, I operate on a very small budget for the first year. And it was great. It's a lot of work to build something up from scratch. And it was like, I was being paid a salary. My wife started to believe that like, wow, this is, this is possible. Like you made this.

happen out of thin air. I was like, I know, like, it's strange. So we were set to exactly and you know, we had already made the decision that I was staying home taking care of our daughter. And she would be the one working I didn't need to work to sustain our life, which was great. So this was extra. And then, you know, Luna, Tara,

BFG (Pete) (15:32.846)
As long as wife is happy, everybody's happy.

BFG (Pete) (15:53.23)
Good too.

Joe (15:58.239)
happened in 2022. And that hit us pretty hard. We had to make some cuts. But we still had enough to develop the marketplace because we wanted to start generating a revenue. So we always knew we had x amount of runway. And we were set to do that about a year ago. We were about to launch it a year and a half ago now, actually.

and start onboarding all of these artists that we featured. We featured close to like 400 within the first like year and a half of Underground and did about like 50 to 60 drops on Tezos. But when we had to cut down on our writers because of Terra, we had to slow things down because it essentially became me and people that were willing to volunteer time.

And that lasts only so long, that goodwill. You have to start showing people some progress or some money because everyone's busy. Everyone's volunteering their time to make something here. And then when we were set to launch the marketplace, the developer the day before launch decided he wanted more money.

BFG (Pete) (17:12.59)
Totally.

Joe (17:21.887)
and wanted to renegotiate his contract and it just fell apart. So like, when you say things like, like this could have been one of those projects that just kind of withered away and died, like that could have been the moment. The moment could have also been when Terra and FTX collapsed, all that, like when I had to cut down the writers, like I completely, the reason I laugh when you say,

stuff like that is because it's 100 % true. Like it really could have just, I could have let it go. And you're right. Like I couldn't, I can't. Like I didn't even like get a chance to like get it started, you know? Like the publication was the natural evolution of Underground. Like I was already writing about art for these guys and I told them about my idea for Underground. And I was like, this is just like the easy transition.

BFG (Pete) (17:58.702)
You couldn't.

Yeah, that's amazing.

Joe (18:19.103)
right here. Like I've got these other ridiculous ideas to like, get things going and how we can like actually use this tech and community building stuff to actually change things for the better. I believed in all of that nonsense about community and making a better version of the internet that we where we all benefit. I totally

drank that Kool -Aid and I didn't even get a chance to get started so I couldn't let it go. The guys that I worked with launched a meme token and it took off and that's where they're now working. And I was like, well, I can't let this thing die. So like, I need to do something. And my wife, you know, gave me the year and now we're here. So, and it's still going and...

BFG (Pete) (19:15.854)
still going and launching a token.

Joe (19:16.351)
I'm starting to like rehire people to and launching a token like I'm doing like all of these things that are that a year ago, or even three years ago, I would have said like, no, that's ridiculous. I'm never doing anything like that. I'm going to need help from other people to like show me how and for the most part, it's just me and it's tough at times, but it's happening and

BFG (Pete) (19:42.67)
Well, you know, so I think the story is awesome. And one thing which I would point out, I think, you know, the developer bailing out on you, it might be a blessing because the technology has changed so much in that year for better. That, you know, whatever you launched, whatever you would have launched a year ago might, you know, just need a redo if you would want to keep growing. So the fact that, you know, you are...

Joe (20:00.127)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Joe (20:07.039)
Mm -hmm.

BFG (Pete) (20:12.558)
launching now might be actually a great improvement. Of course, it didn't look like it a year ago, I'm pretty sure. And I've been there myself, having people like, yeah, we are now about to launch and they want to renegotiate stuff which you can't afford or you don't want to afford, doesn't matter. So yeah, I definitely feel you. So tell me where is underground now?

Joe (20:12.863)
Mm -hmm.

Joe (20:28.671)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -mm.

BFG (Pete) (20:40.974)
I'm going to pull up the website for everybody so they can see it and you can talk over me.

Joe (20:46.751)
Yeah. So yeah, so once the website, like, or the marketplace, like you said, kind of fell apart, it is kind of a blessing because it is now it's my vision, and it's my like capabilities and the people that have

stuck it out with me or at least kept in touch and said, when you're ready, I'll come back. Like those people like have shown their character. So like to me, like that's more important than having the best people that can like build anything that you envision. So it is, I think it is in a better spot than it was a year ago. But so like for the past year, I had to like scramble and figure out, all right, how am I going to like make this sustainable?

and during that time I couldn't write articles. Like I had to plan things and come up with an idea and concept and network. Like, how am I going to generate any income? And, I launched, I was like, okay, well, a token's gotta be involved. It was always going to be involved in our vision, for underground anyway. so like, what if I just launched it and the membership card, like all of this stuff that you're.

showing and seeing this is all was part of the plan. The only difference now is the marketplace and the other things that we wanted to put alongside of it don't exist yet. I'm just doing things in reverse. I never wanted to crowdfund. I never wanted to sell something to fund what I was doing. I wanted to just, we always knew when we were building it that like this bear market was going to come and I

we were all in agreement that we needed to be prepared for that. And when that time come came, we would be kind of like the raft to like help people stay afloat during that time. And then we found ourselves in the same position as everyone else. So that was tough for me. And that's one of the reasons I couldn't give up. Because I was like really like hoping to like be able to like provide something for people to utilize. So so in June, January,

Joe (23:05.311)
We launched the token and the membership card sale just to like get the idea out there to show people what my vision for Underground is because like I had never told anyone what the plan was. You know, you try to like create, I guess, mystery and hype, I guess, like to tell people, hey, we've got something coming. I just wanted to lay out the entire plan and my vision for what.

BFG (Pete) (23:27.95)
Mm -hmm.

Joe (23:34.655)
the first phase of underground was going to be. So we launched the token, the membership card. We pulled in some money from the membership card sales to keep things going. And I didn't want to launch, I started giving the token away to people for free, just to like, the token itself is, it's use cases, which we'll get into later, are, it's gonna be like, you want it,

the right people to have it, essentially. Otherwise, I could have launched a liquidity pool right out the gate and just said, here, anyone who has money, come buy it. But then I haven't really changed the dynamics in this space really. It's still about the people who have money. And a lot of the artists and people that I work with are like me, don't have money. So.

I wanted to make sure I was giving the opportunity to the right people, the right people with the right convictions and ideas about what this space and what we're capable of recreating here. So we started just giving it out to people who referred other people here for genuine community, which was like a big thing for me, like right around like when Tez poll happened. That's when.

we launched the token right after that. It was like we were all searching for something to do, something to rally around, something to just like reinvigorate this. So I gave away like a couple billion of the token. Yeah, for people. And then we discovered Warpcast, which is how you and I became connected and

BFG (Pete) (25:14.926)
Wow, good number.

Joe (25:29.663)
the ability to, distribute the token, on Warpcast through frames and tipping mechanisms. I saw the potential there and I was like, okay, this is where I need to move everything. So that's what I've been doing for the last month. Cause the referral process prior to that, was very tedious. It's hard to get it to the right people, without like, we would use Google forms and,

tags on Twitter, but then bots and people like just farming for airdrops would, I would send a form out, a bot would get hold of it. And all of a sudden I've got 20 ,000 wallet addresses trying to get this airdrop that I want to go to regular people and real people. So it was a process. And now with Warpcast, like that problem is solved. So.

We bridged it to bass and I'm setting up the liquidity pools this week. That's what I've been doing for the past like two to three days.

BFG (Pete) (26:26.382)
Nice. So, can you, maybe for me and everybody else, just what's the relation between the card and the token? Is there any, are you like more valuable member because you have a card or it doesn't really matter?

Joe (26:49.887)
So there is a relationship, the membership cards, once we build the staking site, that is coming. I want the warp cast potential really like shifted the steps in the process for me because it just alleviated, it streamlined everything for me. So the membership cards will have like be able to earn.

the token and be staked. The card will also get other special perks. One of the things like is membership to the DAO. Like I always envisioned like underground being more of a DAO and community owned thing. And basically putting together an executive board and you know, like underground is kind of a universal term. Like it's not an American thing. There are underground scenes.

in South America, Indonesia, like it's everywhere. It's something that we can all relate to. So I kind of envisioned it as people taking the brand and the idea and setting up their own underground galleries in other parts of the world. So you would become a DAO member, which would help us delegate funds to...

BFG (Pete) (27:56.366)
Absolutely.

Joe (28:16.031)
you know, specific people on the teams, like I've had international language teams set up, which I didn't plan on doing right out the gate, but the right people showed up and started helping and now they're translating things for me. So like they'll be the ones that take the Dow and set it up where they're located. So the membership card allows you access to vote in the Dow and

BFG (Pete) (28:37.614)
Thanks for watching!

Hmm.

Joe (28:44.095)
you know, I wanted the marketplace to be owned by the DAO. And one of the first proposals will be to split that revenue and make sure it goes to the DAO and to membership card holders. So you can earn the token by staking it. They'll get rewards for other perks and ideas that I have down the road as well, too. And yeah.

BFG (Pete) (29:07.982)
Awesome! So big plans, still big plans. I like it, I like it. I hope that the concert we just started outside of this building is not gonna totally ruin the recording. But it is, right? It's inescapable. I moved around and it's everywhere. The building is basically shaking.

Joe (29:13.567)
I know.

Joe (29:22.975)
No, I don't think so. It's a nice background noise.

BFG (Pete) (29:37.102)
A little bit unexpected, but you have to work with what you have. I don't have another building. So that's about it. But you know, so what I wanted to ask, so obviously, you know, underground, as I was scrolling through for people who could see it, it's about artists, it's about discovering artists who are not famous. So you most likely won't find people on the platform, but you will maybe find future people.

Joe (29:39.711)
Mm, that's OK. Exactly.

Joe (30:06.239)
Mm -hmm.

BFG (Pete) (30:06.926)
Is it about static art? Is it about visual art only? Is it more broad? Do you guys touch on movies, film, writing? Or is it only visual art? That's probably the best short question.

Joe (30:24.415)
No. Yeah, art is what's here right now. So that's like where it started. I always envision Underground as more of a music blog than anything else. I mean, the whole idea and concept of it was basically mirrored after Pitchfork, which is like the more indie version of Rolling Stone or Spin Magazine here in America. So but art.

was is still the dominant force here. I don't like people. People think music has taken off. It was starting to take off here in this space. I still don't see it the same in the same way. I think it's still needs help. It still needs cultivation for sure, because like once smaller bands.

smaller musicians, artists, start coming into this space, like then the floodgates will open, I think. And once we show people how they can own their music and earn royalties and do all this stuff, and actually make a living without things like Spotify and Apple Music, I think that is the true potential, but you need to start small. So,

BFG (Pete) (31:49.486)
Okay.

Joe (31:49.567)
Yeah, I've always envisioned Underground doing art, music, and eventually film. Film is probably going to take the longest to get going. Luckily, there are people here already doing things that I've become friends with, close with. Beats at Here and Now, he'll deny that we're friends publicly. But why can't the next A24 exist here?

BFG (Pete) (32:04.846)
Mm -hmm.

Joe (32:17.919)
in Web3, like this is like with all the writer unions, film production music, all of that stuff, like all this is like now the time to like start building those institutions here from the ground up. And that's what I've always envisioned for Underground is like funding small record labels and small film studios.

BFG (Pete) (32:35.232)
Okay.

BFG (Pete) (32:43.854)
Nice. So, you know, one thing I wanted to say is I was surprised how many music artists and basically people who are into music I found on Warpcast was kind of a surprise. I'm pretty sure there's many people into music in like crypto Twitter. It's just that they're way harder to find. And yeah, and you know, it always seemed that the music and

Joe (33:06.111)
Mm -hmm.

BFG (Pete) (33:13.998)
sound I would say are kind of like a secondhand citizens to like visual art. Simply because you know it's kind of harder to do and also you know it's probably like harder market people sort of expect that you know it's hard to make money there. And I would have one comment for everybody's building so maybe even for you. I always thought that everybody who tried to

Joe (33:20.287)
Mm -hmm.

Joe (33:34.463)
Mm -hmm.

BFG (Pete) (33:43.118)
create the music and help creators. I was kind of going about it in a wrong direction because everybody was focusing on creators. And creators don't need you to focus on them. They just need fans. And so the right focus must start with the fans and then creators will come. It's like, if you want to get the corporation to do something, just bring the customers wherever the customers are.

Joe (33:59.039)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Joe (34:07.295)
Mm -hmm.

Joe (34:11.039)
Mm -hmm.

BFG (Pete) (34:11.758)
every company will be there as long as they are, you know, interested in those people. So, yeah.

Joe (34:17.599)
100 % I could not I I don't think I've said it better myself. Like I've been saying something similar to that. I you're right. We are going about it the wrong way. One of my ideas for the music stuff is God, I don't even know if like I like sharing my ideas publicly anymore because like people have the capabilities of doing this stuff faster. But like, you know,

Those early days in Napster in the late 90s, like that cultivated the whole like underground music scene in a way that was the right way to do it. They didn't monetize it and they've faced a lot of negative backlash, but.

You know, I've been reading about it more recently because I'm becoming old and you like to reminisce about your times as a teenager. So I'm reading about that. We all do it. I know. I just never thought I would be doing it, but here I am. But like reading about it. I know. But like reading about it, it like.

BFG (Pete) (35:17.294)
Yeah, yeah, we all do that. We all do that. Don't worry.

BFG (Pete) (35:27.918)
It would be that early, right?

Joe (35:37.855)
It was the right idea sharing stuff with each other is how it's supposed to be. And that's what drove the users to their product. And you're right, everyone's focused on the creator aspect, but you know, there's people like me who can't create, who are tone deaf, but that doesn't mean I don't love music and don't relate to a lot of it and can pick out from like,

whole mess of noise like the ones that I like and the ones that I know other people will like. You know around that time when Napster was starting to fall apart, you know, I was like, man, I want to start my own record label. Like I like these bands and I just like didn't have the money. I didn't have the time. I didn't have the commitment either as a 20 something year old kid. But like now with

BFG (Pete) (36:35.886)
you

Joe (36:37.183)
this tech and money floating around like, I could do it now. But you're right, we're going about it the wrong way. We need to focus on the sharing of music, how we used to do that, and what really like drives like fandom. And part of that is with the token, rewarding people like me, who just enjoy searching for things that I like, whether it's movies, music, art.

writing, whatever, and sharing that with other people. Everyone asks how I write about art or what my background is. And all I'm doing is writing about things that I like. There's no secret to it. There's no education behind it other than the overlap between.

literature and art and music and stuff. It's all the same language for the most part, but when it boils down to it, all I'm doing is writing about the art that I like. And it's part of that, like demystifying this gap between the people that are here in crypto that stay out of art because they think, well, I don't know anything about it. Like, that's okay. You don't need to know anything about it. I didn't either.

and look what I'm doing now. So it's just a matter of being able to articulate what you like and identifying what you like. And that's really what drives adoption for this stuff.

BFG (Pete) (38:14.606)
Yeah, totally, totally. So we are hitting almost 40 minutes. So let me do one of the closing questions. I don't want to say the last one, but the closing one. So if somebody wants to go and get involved in underground or just wants to go and check it out, what would you say? Where should they start?

Should they jump on a blog? Should they jump on a marketplace? Should they get a membership card?

Joe (38:51.775)
For right now, Warpcast is the best way to pay attention. We've got the ground token is now on base. And like I said, I'm setting up the liquidity pool. We're going to start, we're working on the pay bot integration. One of the use cases for the token is to kind of like reward people for, you know,

sharing underground content and engaging with it. People don't realize that like, you know, we've been doing it for free for Twitter, specifically, and, you know, blockchains in general, like we've been marketing for them for free by driving the conversation around these blockchains. Like the tech is great, and that excites a lot of people. But there's this whole other branch of us that

you know, drive the communication around the philosophy, the ideas around it and the art and music and the things that we need to be basically culture. Like we are the culture and I believe people should be rewarded for that. So one of the things that we'll be doing on Warpcast is when now that I can finally reward the writers for writing articles for me.

When we post an article, we're going to incentivize people to leave a comment on it and then using the pay bot tool, they can make requests for X amount of tokens. I'll have a whole chart to lay out the rewards for actions for engaging with content. And if they leave a comment and do a pay request for X amount of tokens, Underground will pay you in the form of a token for contributing essentially to the discussion around it. We should be...

Part of the problem with Degen is we like free markets and the idea of free markets, but when there's no guardrails, like we go back to our, you know, what's comfortable and what's familiar in the space, which is engagement farming essentially and doing random contests and things like that. I want to kind of push the conversation forward and focus on incentivizing.

Joe (41:14.719)
specific actions rather than just, let's just see what happens. I'd rather get like these artists that are on the bottom, all they're looking for is a chance. And like you said, fans, so fans talk about art and talk about artists and music and stuff. So let's incentivize that and incentivize the fandom of it. So really just like following

BFG (Pete) (41:18.702)
Don't believe.

BFG (Pete) (41:41.646)
So cool. Let me... So are you gonna somehow, I would say, integrate or piggyback on the projects like Dracula, Alpha Friends, wherever some pieces of music and visual community hangs out these days, or it's gonna be just...

Underground and Grindr or Groundstoke and I decided how should I call it.

Joe (42:18.367)
Everyone's undecided. I always assumed it would just be a natural transition underground. Here's the last half of that word. It's ground token. But some people started calling it grind because that's what people think, which is fine. But it is a grind doing all this stuff. It takes a lot of work. So we'll be integrating all of that stuff. I think we need to use the tools that are there.

Underground will exist as a blog too, still on Paragraph. And we'll be using Dracula to like focus on like video content, like you said. We've got podcasts that I've recorded that need to be edited. So we'll be utilizing all the other tools that we can. We'll be using some video clips from our video podcasts that we do.

so yeah, we'll be using all of that. It's, it stinks in the early stages because you have to kind of go everywhere at once. Like you don't know what is going to click and that's the hardest part. So, but I've really put a lot of effort in making sure that we're establishing ourselves on work tests because we're able to interact a lot better and the incentive portion, like tipping and paying people,

via write in feed rather than having to do it manually is so much easier. So that's really the best spot. The marketplace will exist once we finally get to that stage. And the website will be there to basically break down the information and the...

thousand different aspects of Underground that I've been planning for the last three years. Will hopefully summarize it for me better than I'm capable of doing.

BFG (Pete) (44:16.43)
Yeah, well, you know, we have to see the master plan someday. But okay, so I think we can summarize. I can basically just summarize. If you are interested in Underground and music and art, just go check WarpCast and get connected with Joe. I'll put all the links into show notes, obviously. It's all finally there. And keep an eye on this. I actually like the idea with the paybot a lot.

Joe (44:21.087)
I know.

Joe (44:39.487)
Mm -hmm.

BFG (Pete) (44:45.838)
It's just, I think, you know, it's pretty manual. So it's going to be a lot of work on your back at the early days to check all the requests. But it's probably the only way you can sort of do it before it somehow scales because as you correctly pointed out, you know, I think Degen did it in a great way. But, you know, the system was built on or was optimized for

Joe (44:53.983)
Mm -hmm.

Joe (45:02.559)
Right.

BFG (Pete) (45:15.15)
engagement. So the higher engagement you had, the bigger your allocation was and you know, so the bigger boss you felt you are, which meant, you know, I want to get the engagement anyway I can for most people, which, you know, contest is super easy thing to do for the most part. And, you know, I did my share of contests as well, because it's also easy to manage in a sense. So, you know, if you team up with somebody, you can kind of do all.

Joe (45:19.487)
Mm -hmm.

Joe (45:24.095)
Mm hmm. Right. Mm hmm.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Joe (45:41.599)
Mm -hmm.

BFG (Pete) (45:44.622)
like normal work and still be active in a contest rather than just going through feed and finding what you like and tipping people, which first of all doesn't give you any engagement, you just feel good. And second of all, it takes way more time. So you just like do nothing else. But I totally get it. I was also annoyed at one point in time with the like feed full of contests.

Joe (45:48.767)
great.

Right.

Joe (45:57.535)
Yep. It is.

I know.

BFG (Pete) (46:12.206)
And so I did a lot of unfollow and mute because I always feel, you know, it's sort of, you know, it's web3. So it's my responsibility to make it work for me. It's nobody else's. And, you know, I wouldn't dare to just like turn around like many people did and start saying, contests are bad. Don't do contests. Like I just did one last V. How can I now say don't do contests?

Joe (46:12.799)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Joe (46:24.895)
Right. Nope.

Joe (46:33.919)
Mm -hmm.

I know. Well, yeah, some some people are flexible, easygoing, and I may come off that way. But I'm a very stubborn, miserable person that will go down in flames and never do that. But it's going to happen. I know it's going to happen once it gets out of my hands. Like I can't control every aspect of it. It's why I've like focused so much on making sure I.

gave the token first to like people that I knew understood the possibilities of Web3 and like what the larger vision is of what we're trying to do here in reshaping like inequities, financial, social, whatever. Because when the tipping comes along for ground, which we have that capability now, but you know, that's...

second phase after the pay bot portion of it. Once we start doing that, like, it's gonna speed up and people are gonna do what they want to do with it. I'm still gonna focus on incentivizing very specific things that benefit artists that benefit fans of creators in general. But people are going to do whatever they decide to do with it, unfortunately.

BFG (Pete) (47:53.742)
Yep.

I am glad you just said it. And sorry that I talked over you, but I'm glad you just said it. Because the thing is, even though many people don't like contests, life in a sense on social media is kind of a contest and every creator is in a contest with someone else.

Joe (48:04.415)
I'll stop.

Joe (48:13.311)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

BFG (Pete) (48:20.11)
So, you know, for creators, I actually think for many of them, the contests, which were super annoying for us, were great because, you know, they could get decent amount of dollars basically into their wallet because they have nice art, which people liked. And they won a number of contests and you could win contests every day. You know, there was no limit. It's like you could go to five different channels.

Joe (48:20.639)
Yep.

Joe (48:35.455)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Joe (48:45.375)
All right.

BFG (Pete) (48:47.022)
participate in 20 contests, you would win some, you wouldn't win the others, but the opportunity was there. And, you know, in real life for art, it's pretty much a contest of attention anyway. So it wasn't that different. It was just annoying that it was in one feed and it was there, there all day, every day. Okay, Joe, some last words. What would you say is the most exciting?

Joe (48:47.871)
Mm -hmm.

Joe (48:53.007)
Hmm. Mm -hmm.

Joe (49:01.247)
percent.

Yeah, it was just all day.

BFG (Pete) (49:17.102)
thing coming up in 2024.

Joe (49:20.415)
Just from my perspective, like, look, I didn't think I'd get this far. So I like and like I said, like I may come off like easygoing and optimistic about stuff, but I'm not. I honestly like for the last year, I thought I was going to have to give up on this and I'm not.

BFG (Pete) (49:22.35)
From your perspective, just one.

BFG (Pete) (49:29.358)
Okay, that's fair.

Joe (49:49.951)
One, to really hype things up. I don't like that. Like, I'd rather under -sell and over -deliver. And for the first time in three years, I can finally say, because of everything that's set up right now, that if something happened to me tomorrow, this whole thing can exist without me. Like, it will have revenue streams already.

It has team members that care about it. Underground can exist with or without me, which this time last year I couldn't say. Like whether or not, like you said, like a lot of these projects die and it's hard, it's really hard to do. But where I'm sitting right now.

BFG (Pete) (50:39.758)
okay. So basically the most exciting thing is going to be that it's still alive. That's the... Okay. Nice.

Joe (50:46.879)
that it's sustainable. Like, that's the thing is like, I can pay people to write. That is the key to all of this is that it's like in its current form, I could do nothing and it's gonna keep on growing from this point on, which is the best thing I can say because the experience I've had, like all I'm doing is telling people that what they're doing is good. When it boils down to it, I'm just

BFG (Pete) (51:02.35)
Wonderful. Okay.

Joe (51:16.639)
That's it. And the impact it has on these artists and small creators is incredible. And they're all say like, yes, we all need this. And now this thing is sustainable and can continue indefinitely as long as people find it useful. So, and that I think is the best thing I can say.

BFG (Pete) (51:38.99)
Okay, okay, that's awesome. Look, I think there was a lot of alpha, so I'm just gonna summarize it guys. So there is rating opportunities, there is Paybot coming, there is gonna be a tipping with the grinder or ground, whatever you wanna call the token. And maybe the name will be up for grabs through some contest.

Joe (52:00.703)
That's a good idea.

BFG (Pete) (52:02.926)
And I think there are a lot of exciting things coming up for Underground, definitely. Thank you very much, Joe, for the time. I think you'll be one of my guests, which I put on the list to, like, let's do repeat, say, in like 12 to 18 months and see where you manage to move Underground now with the board and...

Joe (52:27.359)
Mm -hmm.

BFG (Pete) (52:30.606)
all the exciting revenue streams which will probably move things forward and speed them up as well. It was great. I love persistent builders. So you're definitely on top of my list. Thank you very much.

Joe (52:39.039)
Let's hope so.

Joe (52:45.119)
That's... Yeah, persistency. Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate it. This won't be the last time we talk for sure.

BFG (Pete) (52:53.974)
So thank you everybody. Remember there is a subscribe button you should use it. I was told I am supposed to repeat it at the end or end at the beginning because people don't know. So I'm gonna do it for season 3. You have to bear with me. So go subscribe on whichever platform you like and leave a review if you liked it and definitely go check show notes for Underground and Joe's links because there are big things coming. Have a great day everybody.